O.k I have mentioned I was going to write this and now I have finally got the time (lunch time lol)
HHO Cells for the masses. (my cheap basic instructions to build a long lasting better than others cell)
This paticular cell is a device that creates an electrochemical reaction in a substance containing H2O. This doesn't have to be water! Although that is the cheapest substance. There are many different ways of creating this chemical reaction. Most commonly is a series cell and this type of cell is what we are going to talk about.
A series cell has many conductive plates attached together (parallel to one another) but isolated from one another. Such as |||||||| now in a series cell electricity is only applied to the two outside plates. Usually in the form of +||||| - this is the most efficient cell design so far. Although in the future this may be obsolete. With this cell you want to have a each plate equal in weight and dimensions preferably but this is near impossible usually so therefore do your best. For this example we will use 4" x 4" x 0.25" Pure ultra fine graphite plates. (usually found for glass working) you can order them online at http://cgi.ebay.com/High-Densi.....QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem although these look expensive you get a significant discount from this seller if you buy more than one. For this instance we want 4 plates
While on ebay we need to purchase some other things. We need a 1000 watt audio amplifier with a pulse width modulation powersupply. http://cgi.ebay.com/PYRAMID-2-.....QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem look in the description mosfet pwm power supply exactly what we need for the most efficient power supply.
You now have a completely variable pwm powersupply with rf control. Your going to need an amp install kit. The cheapest place i have seen in walmart. About 10 bucks there. This will be used to hook power up safely from your vehicle to the amplifier. This sticky is very vague so make sure you use common scense with all of this.
O.k so both of these units are coming in the mail. Now you want to download sigjenny a free signal generation program for you computer. [url]http://www.natch.co.uk/downloads/SigJenny/SigJenny.zip [/url] This program is super easy to use and self explanatory. Now you will need to pick up a 3.5mm jack y cable to 2 rca ask a radio shack rep they will help you. They are usually 5 bucks.
Next connect the amplifier to the computer via the y cable ( you want to plug into the sound card output.) Now you have an ability to control the amplifier via the computer. Next you will need to hook the amplifier to a car batter/lawn batter (12volt only) you can use your battery charger at the same time to keep the battery charged. I used a lawn battery and bolted two wires to it and to the power input on the amp. Use another piece of wire for the remote on of the amplifier (this turns the amp on and off) and connect it to the positive wire this will turn the amp on. O.k so we are all hooked up now. You want to hook wire (speaker wire is the cheapest 18 guage or heavier) to the speaker output on the amplifier make sure you wire it for mono operation this will give you maximum usable output. Connect the positive of the speaker output to a diode (you can purchase a heat sinkable diode from radio shack if you don't have one) on the other side of the diode clip a wire on and two the positive of your cell. The negative goes straight from the amp to the negative on the cell. Next we want to make sure the cell is totally immersed in very hot water. The hotter the better however be careful as to not burn yourself and make sure you cell container can handle the heat BE CAREFUL NOT TO GET BURNED i can't stress that enough most containers melt in boiling water. You will notice boiling bubbles forming on the plates we want this. Seal up your container and attach a bubbler. It will be making bubbles already this is not hho it's just steam pressure. The great thing about the HHO cell is that the electrochemical reaction absorbs surround energy in the form of heat. This is how we get more hho out of the same cell. Turn on your amplifier if not already done load sig jenny and choose square wave and adjust the frequency up to 200hz start your computer off at a low volume as to not blow your amplifier. The amp should have no problems as long as you only use hot water no electrolyte. Set your volume at 25 percent uncheck the mute button in sigjenny. You should see some hho coming from the cell now. Up the volume to 50 percent on your computer's sound card. You should see more hho production. Now adjust the frequency higher to 500hz. Change the cycle time from 5 seconds to 0.2 now. Now bring your sound card volume to 75 percent the amplifier shouldn't have blown any fuses yet. But if it has reduce the volume to 50 percent and replace fuses. The amplifier is puts out 40 volts at about 25 amps at full load. This gives you a higher voltage to work with to improve the flux field between plates so less current is needed to force the connection. Also since this is a pulse type frequency the wires going to the cell should be cool the diode should be warm and the cell is not putting out any heat. Now to tune the resonance of the cell. In the past i have seen many different frequencies and i have been unable to have any cell give me the same. It's never one specific hz your looking for.
From my studies this type of cell needs your to turn sig jenny up to 8 to 10 khz you will hear a frequency sound coming from the amp and the cell will sound like a mini speaker now. Now turn the frequency up to between 26khz and 28khz you will hear the noise again and this time your heating the peak resonance of the cell. It will draw the most load from the amp and the cell will hit peak output of this design. You can up the volume until the fuses blow if they havn't do it in 1 percent increments as to find the max load of the amp. When the fuses blow reduce the volume 10 percent replace the fuses and slowly bring it back up to 2 percent under when it blew previously this will give you the peak output of the circuit as well.
Now to put this in a vehicle. You will need a way of taking your peak frequency rang and saving it. You can save it as mp3 and store it on an mp3 player this works well for in the vehicle you may need to wire it in so that it get's it's power from the car. Mount your cell securely. pipe the hho into the intake of the vehicle mount the amplifier and hook it up with the walmart amplifier install kit. Mount everything securely . Now you want to make sure your water is hot. You want to use compression fittings and mount a copper tube into your cell so that glychol from your engine when hot heats the water to boiling or close. This will give you many many times more hho than ever. use the mp3 player (these usually have less output than your home computer choose an mp3 player that gets really loud) Now Make sure to wire the mp3 player and the car amplifier so that when you shut off your key (you may need a relay hooked to the key switch) the amp and the mp3 player shut off or you will run the battery dead over night. Now turn on everything test the glychol for leaks test the hho for leaks and make sure no steam is getting to the engine if so you may need to use a small computer radiator on the output of the cell in order to cool the hho and seperate the water steam.
Now you have the most efficient cell available for off the shelf parts. It will outlive stainless steel cells and produce more hho by many fold over. You use less energy from your car in a safer more tunable fashion.
You will notice it helps the engine very very little this is because your engine is turned to run on a set amount of gasoline. The only way to improve this to the yield people are claiming (but isn't true 99 percent of the time) i mean i am talking 10 percent gain that's about the best i have actually seen in the real world out of about 250 different vehicles and designs is to rent, borrow, or buy a obd programmer most american vehicles are equiped with the obd plug already under the steering wheel. You will need to reduce the fuel to air ratio which is usually 14 or 12:1 to about 18:1 or i have seen as low as 22:1 this is only done by testing just reduce it one ratio at a time and start the vehicle run it around the block and do another until the engine doesn't run very well and is starving for power then give it a little bit more fuel one ratio at a time until it runs well again. This is were you save the real gas now.
And this has been my super vague hho cells for the masses sticky. I won't edit this but i may add more info via reply's
is to rent, borrow, or buy a obd programmer most american vehicles are equiped with the obd plug already under the steering wheel. You will need to reduce the fuel to air ratio which is usually 14 or 12:1 to about 18:1 or i have seen as low as 22:1 this is only done by testing just reduce it one ratio at a time and start the vehicle run it around the block and do another until the engine doesn't run very well and is starving for power then give it a little bit more fuel one ratio at a time until it runs well again. This is were you save the real gas now.
Does this mean that the computer in our cars / trucks can be changed perminently or reprogramed to accomodate the use of HHO without the EFFI divices on the market that are recomended. If so what type of tester is this?
Being Certified for Tailpipe Emissions testing (Notice: Certified, NOT LICENSED- License means money/ possible damages for a tiny screw-up!) I suggest that you start by looking to the sensor outputs to see what makes the computer happy.
Now, use those sensor outputs to keep the computer blind/ oblivious to what is really happening, and do the tweaking to keep the computer functioning, thinking everything is cool, but really it isn't all cool/ nor is everything running at specs.
If the computer is happy, no re-program is needed. so tweak things out, like a sensor double that keeps the computer happy, but reduce the fuel pressure, or the fuel flow, or shut off completely. Make output data possible with a fake sensor. O2 sensors are my favorite: They will react to the oxygen content in the exhaust, thereby output is between 0.1 volts and 0.9 volts. 0.1 volts indicates rich mixture, and 0.9 volts indicates lean mixture. 0.5 volts is optimum, but it must almost randomly cycle between 0.430 volts and 0.670 volts to enable "O2 Cross Count" or "O2 Cycling" between rich and lean, crossing the center line of 0.5 volts. Then the injectors must be ohm'd out. The computer checks to see if there is a shorted/ open injector. if the injector ohms are perfect every time, the computer is dumb enough to accept it, and think everything is OK.
Tach Out: this is a square wave output that can be made with a 555 Timer, just set it to match your car's engine.
Knock sensor must exist, but if it shows no knocking, there never has to be any action taken to modify the spark advance/ retard.
DPFEGR: Differential pressure Feedback Exhaust Gas Recirculation. This little humdinger won't be affected by Hydrogen fuel being used.
Think on those lines, and re-program won't be necessary, even for non-OBDII vehicles.
I see were your going with this but why do all that complicated work when 15 minutes with a programmer and walla you have the perfect setup. However with non obd computers this would be a requirement.
Ford B5A Injectors are manufactured for use with Gasoline, Propane, Natural Gas, and Hydrogen Fuel.
These Injectors are found on the 1998 Ford Econoline Van with the 5.4 Liter CNG Factory Install.
The fuel rail and regulator system work in tandem to automatically adjust and regulate fuel pressure regardless of the fuel being used. The computer had the ability to compensate for this as well. Now you just need one of these vans that hit a tree or something....
Ford B5A Injectors are manufactured for use with Gasoline, Propane, Natural Gas, and Hydrogen Fuel.
These Injectors are found on the 1998 Ford Econoline Van with the 5.4 Liter CNG Factory Install.
The fuel rail and regulator system work in tandem to automatically adjust and regulate fuel pressure regardless of the fuel being used. The computer had the ability to compensate for this as well. Now you just need one of these vans that hit a tree or something....
Can you be more specific of the bio-fuel? Obviously Bio-Diesel will not work all that great (if at all) when used in a spark ignition engine (gasoline engine). Are you talking about Ethanol/ Methanol? Ethane/ Methane? Hydrogen? Propane? Natural Gas? CO + Hydrogen? Wood Gas? Coal Gas?
Ethanol/ Methanol will eat certain types of flexible fuel line, so certain types of rubber or poly fuel lines will be destroyed. The O-rings found on fuel injections parts must also be compatible, as with the diaphragm on the fuel pressure regulator, the Fuel Pipe Inlet Filler Tube, the Pump/ Sender Sealing Ring, and the Filter must ALL be compatible with the fuel.
OOPS! I mis-read. I re-read and you wrote "BI-FUEL" and I thought you wrote "BIO-FUEL"- OOPS!
IF you plan on running gasoline for the primary and Hydrogen as the switch-over, I would look into installing a second gas pedal (if the car is fuel injected...) to be used with a pedal mounted variable pot to control the fuel injectors. As far as I am aware, the only CHEAP, MASS PRODUCED, and possibly available INJECTORS for any car that are rated for hydrogen are the Ford B5A injectors.
You could also use a check valve and a ball valve in line to admit the hydrogen through the biggest vacuum line, and this is done after securing the throttle plate to the WIDE OPEN POSITION, and then use the ball valve to vary the fuel to change engine speed.
Hi! I'm a new member here. I've been reading about HHO for a while now and I'm just starting to build myself a SS plates cell to test and experiment because I finally got a little bench test organized with a home made flow meter and got a power supply.
Also I just learned about graphite for plates material, so I'm glad I found your site, it really seems to have a lot of info on that! So I will read just about everything on your site and try to learn as much as I can and contribute as much as I can even if I don't have the technical knowledge as some of you seem to have...
I want to first congratulate you for this great site and useful information. After I read your posts I decided to give the graphite a try.
Here is what I purchased and how I put the things together, not with very successful results though, unfortunately.... probably I am doing something wrong.
- Graphite - 7 plates Isomolded Graphite Plate, Ground, 0.25"H x 4"W x 4"L, GM-10 - Amplifier - PB717X 1000 W (as recommended in the sticky) - Plates configuration -nnnnn+ ~ all plates are isolated with nylon washers and nylon screws from each other --- do the neutrals need to be connected, I think not but this may be the mistake? - Distance between the plates: tried 0.075 and 0.020 - am I wrong here, what distance would you recommend? - Diode found at Radio Shack - epoxy rectifier diode 3amps - 400 PIV ~ not sure if this is the correct diode - SigJenny - Hot distilled watter, almost to the boiling point
Started SigJenny, with the recommended frequencies, checked the voltage ~30V ---- -almost- no output (few bubbles every minute)! The voltage would not go over 30-32V and the amp's fuse will never blow, as explained in the sticky.
After a while I decided to add some sodium hydroxide, very little, and I started to see some hho. Not sure how much it was producing because I didn't have the time to seal the container and measure the output.
The voltage dropped to about 28V after I added sodium hydroxide, some hho observed, but no matter what frequency I tried - max volume - the voltage would not go higher, fuse never blew.
The major issue I noticed after about 30 min when I stopped the experiment, is that the water turned almost black, I assume because the graphite started to decompose.... which doesn't make me very happy due to the price of the graphite
My question is: what am I doing wrong, no output, no blown fuse, in distilled water only? Is the diode, the plates, the amp, sigjenny? I think I configured everything right, the amp for mono to get the max out of it, yet the fuse never had a problem. The laptop's sound was at max, the amp's connections were correct (not sure if the diode is the right one or if it makes a difference), not sure what to do next.
use tap water for this experiment distilled water will give poor results. Use no sodium hydroxide this is like a dissolving solution. It will destroy the graphite this is why i say not to use it all over the site. Salt if anything. But you shouldn't need salt or sodium. Your main problem here is too many plates. With this paticular max voltage of 32 volts you want 7 plates in parallel or 4 plates in series. +||- max. It's not high enough voltage for 7 plates especially isomolded. We use electrostatic discharge molded plates which hold together much better. also EDM rods seem to hold together the best. I also stated that the frequencies in the stickies were just examples that your results may vary because of your dimensions, resistance, water, just too many variables. Also your computer output isn't as strong as the laptop I was using this is why you are only getting 32volts. I have the exact same amp and I get 38 to 42 volts open circuit.
You know i was thinking about this I wonder if we can use an air capacitor to tune the water capacitor as needed.
use tap water for this experiment distilled water will give poor results. Use no sodium hydroxide this is like a dissolving solution. It will destroy the graphite this is why i say not to use it all over the site. Salt if anything. But you shouldn't need salt or sodium. Your main problem here is too many plates. With this paticular max voltage of 32 volts you want 7 plates in parallel or 4 plates in series. +||- max. It's not high enough voltage for 7 plates especially isomolded. We use electrostatic discharge molded plates which hold together much better. also EDM rods seem to hold together the best. I also stated that the frequencies in the stickies were just examples that your results may vary because of your dimensions, resistance, water, just too many variables. Also your computer output isn't as strong as the laptop I was using this is why you are only getting 32volts. I have the exact same amp and I get 38 to 42 volts open circuit.
You know i was thinking about this I wonder if we can use an air capacitor to tune the water capacitor as needed.
Thanks a lot for the quick reply. I will give tap water a try.
I didn't mention in my first post but I tried a 4 plates configuration and still the same results, -nnn+, voltage won't go over 30v (I understand now that it may be a computer issue, I will try to use a more powerful output).
Is the diode I use a good one, does it matter the size, type, etc?..
--Also, what distance between the plates would you recommend?
I will test more and post the results. Thank you,
EDIT:
Update: Another computer provided higher volume but still poor results.
Unfortunately... I probably do something wrong as even with 4 plates -nnn+ it still doesn't produce anything. Tap water -almost- no bubbles. Draws 28-30v.
I put the 7 plates back and the voltage was 33v, but still no output in tap water. I then put some salt and it started to produce very very little at around 28v but the problem I believe is with the amps, only 0.30amps... not sure why this happens.
After about 30 min in the salty water (very little salt), the plates began to bleed graphite, just like it happened with sodium hydroxide.
The problem I noticed was the heat, I almost burned myself when I touched the diode and the plates were very hot when I pulled them out. Although the water was hot, after a while I assume it should cool a little, but in my case it was getting hotter -at least the plates were very hot, diode as well.
I am not sure what to do next, is it the space between the plates, -nnnnn+ configuration, diode? What is the recommended space between the plates? Any ideas? Thanks,
hmmm i think your doing something wrong can you take some pictures of your setup. I think you have something hooked up wrong. Your voltage on the amp should drop to about 8 to 12 volts and the current should gain tons and tons of production you have a poor connection or something hooked up wrong. Also did you buy your graphite from weaver ind like i suggested? My weaver plates have been running for about 2 years now at just straight 12vdc 2amp with very little powder in the container over the years. also production is quite good too.
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